It’s a time of reflection, do you feel that?
Saturn in Scorpio is really starting to work his magic. Except it doesn’t really feel like magic. Or if it is magic then it’s some old-school thaumaturgy, or one of those terrifyingly savage shamanic rituals that unfortunate sailors would get caught up in, far from home, in the South Seas in the 1700s. It isn’t fun at all.
When the Moon hit Saturn in Scorpio, the energetic landscape changed. What I really became aware of was the way in which Jupiter in Gemini was suddenly, through an act of contrast, laid bare, and he looked kind of ridiculous. Suddenly that boundless frivolity started to seem dumb. It was, in true Saturn style, a reality check. The fact is that Jupiter is appalling in Gemini. Arguably not as appalling as in Virgo, but appalling nonetheless. Jupiter, who likes depth and substance has nowhere to go except to spread himself further on the surface, because Gemini gives no natural depth. Saturn in Scorpio gets seriously deep and suddenly Jupiter looks like a second hand car salesman arguing life perspectives with Alan Watts. In many ways I am far more comfortable with Saturn in Scorpio – as ridiculous as that sounds – than I am with Jupiter in Gemini.
In part that’s a generational problem. Having pondered the conundrum for some time I believe that Neptune is partly to blame (blame? Neptune?) for this. Allow me to explain.
Neptune always gets cast as the good guy; if I may quote myself (from “Orcus” p. 202):
“I believe that Neptune is given a fabulously good press by contemporary astrology, and one that is scarcely deserved. Certainly, Neptune’s reputation is enormously positive compared to his brother Pluto’s, and yet I am endlessly sceptical about how deserving of his many generous epithets Neptune truly is. Like the ocean, Neptune seems beautiful, yearning and restive, a vastness of potential and a personification of a gentle eternity, but it seems that way from the perspective of the safe shore. Anyone who has been beyond sight of land in a black and angry sea understands that Neptune’s power is just as dread as his brother’s; equally as alien and inhumane. Pluto’s realm is buried, however; unknown to the living, whereas Neptune’s treacherous tides and currents are glamorised by his glittering waves and gentle breezes. Neptune’s dreams, poetries and symphonies are spin-doctors par excellence.”
Neptune’s wonderful trick is that he flatters to deceive by presenting us with an image of the ideal that we cannot possibly hope to realise. Then, unattained, the dream becomes a goad to our discontent.
And, when you get to grips with it, Neptune describes your dream. With Neptune in Scorpio, the basic premise is a kind of unencumbered Spartanism. You dream of a life of purity, of minimalism, of spiritual depth. If that Neptune is in the 6th house then you will have a dream about starting your day by donning your robe, walking into the clean air as the day breaks, up to the dojo under the mountain and beginning your meditation. If the 7th house, then instead, you awake in your remote cabin to find sunlight streaming through the trees. Your beautiful, funny, successful wife has made a pot of rich Columbian coffee and you join her on the porch to listen to the birdsong. In the 8th, you wake up in the presidential suite of the Waldorf Astoria. The Swedish women’s volleyball team are staying on the same floor…
Okay, I’m joking, mostly.
But you get the idea. Neptune has a dream. It is highly personal and always alluring because it is purpose-made for you. With a Scorpio placement, the quality of that dream is always going to be characterised by depth and richness. It is not a case of bigger and better; rather it is a case of finding something pure and valuable, like a rich seam of gold deep in the black earth. Imagine that for a moment, it shines in the darkness and promises so much.
The placement of Pluto and aspects to Neptune are going to have a profound influence on the themes of your dream. If you have Scorpio Neptune in the 7th and Pluto in the 10th, then after you have drunk coffee with your wife, you climb into your Porsche and drive into the city to make big-money deals. If Neptune trines Mars then of course, all the girls flirt with you, you’re so charming after all, but they all know that you’re happily married and can’t wait to get home to see your wife.
With Sagittarius, the dream changes, fundamentally. Now Jupiter is running the show, so it’s not a seam of gold buried deep in the earth any more, rather it’s a bright, hot-air balloon drifting gently in the balmy summer sky. You’re up there in the clouds looking down on the glittering panoply under your feet.
With that Neptune in the 6th house, you want a daily routine that’s filled with fun and laughter and good times. Yes, you can feel that can’t you? You get up and the kids are laughing, the sun is shining, your handsome, jovial husband is cooking breakfast and telling goofy jokes. You sit down to eat and your best friend calls and you arrange to go out for lunch after your yoga class. You see? That is the “more is more and it will all be great fun” style of Neptune in Sagittarius’ dream.
Inevitably though, the dream can become something of a curse. Actually, it invariably does, and when we experience hard transits to that Neptune, we begin to feel just how painfully short of that dream our reality actually is. The Neptune squares are the time in our life when we get the best opportunity to feel how far from that dream we are, and to make necessary adjustments, which invariably require coming to terms with the fact that we are going to have to let go of some things that don’t serve that dream. But that isn’t the only time we can improve the situation.
We are gifted another opportunity when Saturn moves into Neptune’s sign. It rarely feels like an opportunity, because the nature of these two energies are fundamentally dissonant, but for those born with Neptune in Scorpio, now is the time to make the hard and often onerous changes in your life which will help you to make the dream a reality. This is because the planet of reality is bearing down on the planet of fantasy, and when they finally meet, they are going to find a middle ground. It might be that Saturn gives way and you work hard to realise the dream, or it might be that Neptune gives ground and you start to get real about what is possible, and adjust the dream accordingly. Whichever way it goes, and usually there is a combination of both, after this transit, your ideal life, and your actual life will be closer than ever before. The process will not have been easy, or enjoyable, but you’ll be glad of it when it’s done.
With Neptune in Sagittarius, the situation is unique and considerably more compelling. Neptune in Sagittarius’ dreams and aspirations are in many ways bigger than Scorpio’s, and easier to deflate for that reason. But the great cosmic mechanism has ensured that Neptune in Sagittarius gets a double dose of adjustment as Saturn moves into Sagittarius between December 2014, and December 2017. People born in about 1971 are already being given a taste of this problem because – born between 1971 and 1972 they have Neptune in Sagittarius and Saturn in the early degrees of Gemini. They’ve lived with the dissonance of Saturn opposing Neptune their entire lives and as Neptune squares the opposition around now, the reality check can be especially sobering. Neptune is so very idealistic in Sagittarius after all, and the opposition to Saturn really polarises the fantasy with the reality. The dream is extremely positive and the dawning truth at the time of the Neptune squares can feel like a wet blanket the size of the old Soviet Union when it descends.
For those born somewhat after, they will experience Saturn moving into Sagittarius at the same time as their Neptune squares. It’s a double ‘turning of the screw’ on the dream of the perfect life, and for that reason it will feel very tough.
But in both these cases, all is not lost. The adjustment is painful and dissonant, but it also offers a powerful opportunity to make a shift of consciousness, which is always Neptune’s exalting pressure, into a truly spiritual mode of life. Once made, that shift is a panacea for the harshness of Saturnine reality, because it recontextualises material reality, success, status and toil into immaterial terms. Status is no longer being seen as a success, but rather in knowing that one is a good person. The small chores of life are no longer drudgeries, rather they are become meditations. What we call “work” is now “the Work”. Fundamentally, this shift is found in the realisation that the life of contentment and ease that we yearned for is not ‘out there’ but it is inside us, bound up in the distortion of perspective that we are somehow hard done-by, a victim of somebody else, or of God, or that, in fact, because we are good, we deserved better. Saturn teaches our Neptune that nobody gets what they deserve, they get only what they need to let go of the illusion that they deserved better.
I read your article and found it very interesting.. Please state what Neptune in Scorpio in the 4th house means….
Well, very broadly, you can say that the early life imprinting has influenced your dream. Some quality of your formative years constitutes a significant part of what you aspire to. So it’s likely to have to do with home (property itself) or maybe the atmosphere of the home. You probably have a dream property that is simple but profound at the same time. 4th house also often has a leaning to history, so maybe an old-fashioned house. Also there is a strong parental influence, so maybe one or other of your parents (probably your Dad), influences this vision of yours. That can be in a positive or negative way. Of course, these ideas are broad strokes, the details of your nativity will show the fine print.
great article! for this pisces rising with neptune in sadge on the MC- i had to run the transits to see if i had saturn and neptune double whammy in 2016 and on. luckily i have some space between them (saturn in 2016/17 and neptune square in 2018/19)- but i do get them one after another. i resonate with what you say about neptune in sadge but i have a stationary direct pluto which dominates as chart ruler so the depths are where i search for my gold 😉
thanks for the insightful post!
~harmony
Thanks Harmony, good of you to stop by.
Yes, that’s a strong Neptune, but as you say, Pluto in Libra is strong too. Good luck with the Neptune squares, I really enjoyed them (eventually).
I feel so bad asking, but neptune uranus in capricorn? Uranus and neptune seperately are hard enough to fathom, but conceptually I cant put them together. Also its kind of funny about jupiter in gemini, my favorite philosophical figures/jupiter figures, Cornell West, has jupiter in gemini, he is amazing, you should see him on youtube, philosophical friends with such a vast assortment of people and seams to casually know every philosophical tradition there is connecting them and referring to this philosopher and that concept at lightning speed faster than he can put the words together.
A fascinating case David, you will see that Mr West has a combust, peregrine Jupiter in his detriment. That is severely constrained and this is why he has made such a power of Jupiter. You know the theory!
Uranus and Neptune are difficult to combine. They are best summed up with the word “weird”, because you have something that is subtly unconventional, oddly mysterious, and the dream or idealism of Neptune is influenced by technological, scientific, revolutionary, cranky, offbeat ideas. They’re also ruled by Saturn, so Saturn’s placement, along with the house placement of the conjunction will help to see how the blend comes out. In a way both planets have a tendency to escapism in the sense that Uranus abhors routine and convention, while Neptune knows that things could be much better, so when they are put together there is a real attraction to strange, otherworldly, unusual ideas and themes. There might be a fascination (for example) with unconventional, eccentric or especially rarefied scientific theories (quantum states), utopian ideals that are authoritative but revolutionary (like Scientology), or metaphysical and occult studies. You are blending three very incompatible energies here. Uranus tends to turn anything he gets involved with into a slightly scientific vein, Neptune is intangible, Saturn pushes these energies into a conventional format, so anything that puts these together (e.g. the science of faith) that you can become an authority on will work. So you might imagine a scientist who studies parapsychology under this influence. However it does work, it’s important to remember that these are outer planets. They will not manifest quite so directly as combinations with personal planets.
My son has this combo in the second house opposite Venus in cancer in the eighth. I’ve been very curious, and after reading your comments I had to write in. His Third house Saturn is in Aquarius and opposes his 9th house Leo sun within a degree.
My son is 19 and in his freshman year at engineering school. His major will be Earth and Environmental Energy. When he was seven he designed his first business card and wrote the mission statement for the alternative energy company he plans to establish. He’s very bright, quite spiritual, pretty psychic, and very humanitarian; and he loves quantum physics, where it all comes together.
He loves to eat, is a real snuggle bunny, and is drawn to ambitious brilliant pretty feminine girls who are either hard to catch or who have sob stories.
He plays the saxophone, and speaks Spanish more or less fluently.
He’s a poor liar, but lies enough that he has become concerned about it.
When he was little his chart didn’t make a great deal of sense to me, but I am able to see it much better now.
Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
Jeremy ~ I truly enjoy your constructive take on Saturn. Linking to my FaceBook.
I couldn’t be more excited about the current Saturn-Neptune transiting trine. Neptune transiting 4th is requiring a great deal of work in my home (roof and plumbing leaks), but I trust Saturn’s going to help me out here! Saturn has transited into the 12th (finally for good) where it will conjunct n-Neptune at 4 Scorpio. It is definitely roll-up-my-sleeves time regarding life visions ~ particularly about my home and locale. I’m itchin’ to move, but Saturnian matters require I stay put for some time. I expect that my own fantasies won’t come about until Saturn crosses the ASC, and that this time as it transits through 12th will be a period of adjustments and revisions of my “dream” as it becomes a workable goal.
This same Saturn transit in ’83-’85 was definitely a one step forward, two steps back box-step for a while ~ then life matters consolidated and changed significantly in a long-term relationship and in a new career, as Saturn broached the ASC.
An astro-associate just birthed her 5th child yesterday; the Scorpios, including Moon, in his 7th. I feel like “cyber-auntie!” ~ his moon on my ASC.
Yes, that’s exciting even as it’s challenging. A whole new Saturn cycle and a starting over for you.
In about 2 years! Right on schedule with the end of my Saturnian duties to others, in the contracts I made many years ago. When Saturn Scorpio hits my 1st house Jupiter, it will square Chiron Aqua 4th, oppose Lilith-Medusa combo 7th and square Venus/MC. I’ll certainly be on a solitary healing mission by then! There’s a life I want to get to, that evades me now ~ Saturn 12th.
Thanks for your excellent responses to all.
wonderful writing-with deep truth-I agree with you about Neptune’s spin doctors…
Thanks Lorna, my very best to you.
Lorna ~ agree. There’s more to Neptune than music and paintings … and it is about phobias and addictions. Two sides to the coin. Maybe we can’t have one without the other, but both are certainly in play with a strong Neptune placement.
Jeremy wrote about the experience of being out in the ocean during wild weather. I’ve been there and felt that, and was so surprised as I’m a Water Sun trine Neptune. I’d thought I’d be skilled in that environment … instead, I was completely overwhelmed and paralyzed. My Pluto and I were way too far from earth, me-thinks.
agree he is truly appalling in Gemini, especially as now we have a view of his copious behind until.. what, January? I have him natally where he projects pompously through my seventh, though he and Neptune in Libra somewhat redeem one another.. Have recently experienced Saturn’s transit of Neptune in the eleventh which has parallels to that of which you speak – there are compensations for which I am most grateful..
Don’t worry, I feel your pain with Jupiter in Virgo. Not much you can do with that and without a very strong Neptune, it would cause me real problems. I think the trine stands you in good stead for sure. xx
Incidentally, Jupiter is to some extent rescued by a Sag. Ascendant.
What about Neptune in Scorpio in the 2nd house? I find it difficult to grasp the meaning of the 2nd house and how it would impact my 12th house Pluto/Mars conjunction in Virgo.
With the 2nd there is a theme of being in control of your own resources, rather than (for example) being in debt, or needing to rely on anyone else for support. It’s also a confidence house, because we get considerable self-worth from here. It’s difficult to posit hard and fast insights with a sketchy picture, but in general terms I would theorise that Mars/Pluto in the 12th describes somebody who is not comfortable with being ruthless, or even to any particular extent pushy. You would be concerned about rejection. If that describes the situation correctly then it would be possible to see how Neptune in the 2nd would want to live in a world without the usual themes of pushiness, nastiness and blatant self-interest that characterises so many insensitive types. You would want the world to be kinder and feel easily hurt that it isn’t.
Yes, I do need to be in control of my own resources–to the point where I can’t even accept financial gifts from my own parents without a high degree of discomfort. I was burned badly (financially) in my first marriage because I depended entirely on my husband. I have a secret stash of money in a term deposit my second husband knows nothing about. It’s my security blanket. Yes, I fear rejection, more so than the average person. I feel ruthless (Pluto square my moon, venus and mercury conjunction in Gemini) and often think of revenge but in the end, I allow people to walk over me. My family considers me to be a pushover. I’ve been trying to work on establishing boundaries this past year as Saturn transited my first house. I tend to work in the background and prefer accolades from others–which rarely come–but most of the time, I end up with my colleagues and boss taking credit for my projects. I never trumpet my own horn. Overly self-confident people who are pushy and self-involved turn my stomach. The narcissism and tackiness seen on Facebook makes me physically ill. I closed my FB account after just four days.
Wow, so much to digest.
Argh. I feel like I’ve been laid bare by your post. LOL!
You are far too familiar with my astrology, Jeremy: Pluto Virgo 12th trine Neptune Scorpio 2nd, trine North Node Pisces 6th all jumbled up with a trining peregrine Orcus Cancer 10th… I think I will descend beneath the murky waves and make a few more dubious spiritual agreements for shits and giggles, and contemplate the furry underbelly of God. (He really needs a wax).
Love your book, Jeremy. Are you planning on covering peregrine Orcus?
Best to you-
Michelle
Yes, there is still so much work to do on Orcus Michelle, and new insights are making themselves available all the time. When I wrote the book, I had to take a decision about what to leave out because I didn’t want to obscure the key themes. There are some fascinating studies on Orcus on the Ascendant, Orcus peregrine, and progressions and arcs of Orcus too.
I am finding that the astrological community is still somewhat resistant to Orcus, but I hope that in the years to come, he will become more widely studied and discussed. I think that in about 10 years time people will see him on a par with Pluto. Indeed, he is the other half of Pluto, so it isn’t even really possible to understand Pluto properly without Orcus.
Take care, and good luck with that very strong Orcus!
Jeremy
This article touched a cord!
I will always remember the period of Neptune square Neptune, even with my natal placement of Neptune in Scorpio. There was an episode when I was required to work in a huge building for 4 years completely on my own. (Your astrology report on my nativity, namely Orcus, was the ‘isolation’ period) I worked on my own for a total of 9 years, and even so, the Neptune-Neptune was a critical period. There is no other way to describe it, but felt that my mind would dissolve, or I was sure to lose it. The saving grace was other forms of medicinal therapies; flower remedies, meditation , etc. And, I think I eventually gave up fighting my fear and that’s when it all changed. I embarked on an unforgettable journey, and yes, it was a time of communion with ‘spirit’. The best thing that eventuated, was my discovery of the sacred science: Astrology.
…
Recently I became passionate about Vanessa Paradis musical talent. I love her voice. Vanessa is the ex partner of Johnny Depp and she is a famous musician in France. That Johnny Depp allowed this talented woman to leave his life is ludicrous (am a Depp fan myself) He is a sun Gemini and Vanessa’s date of birth is 22/12/1972, sun in Capricorn at 0.26, with numerous planets in Sagittarius, including Neptune. It was ‘rumoured’ by Johnny Depp that she had become envious of his career. This timely post on Neptune confirms that she may be going through a life changing reality check
All the Best,
x
Kelly
Dear Kelly, yes, you have made that shift alright, and you have made it well. Neptune is happier in Scorpio of course than anywhere else, with the exception of Leo and Pisces, and providing the low and selfish side of Scorpio is transcended, then Neptune is delightful in this most committed of signs. In a way, it makes it easier to follow the path. xx
Saturn just conjuncted my 11th house Neptune, which is one leg of a t-square opposing Mercury in Taurus, and both squaring an 8th house moon/Uranus conjunction. I was wondering what the Saturn/moon square would be. Empty nest. My only child is a freshman away at college. I’m ready to stop teaching middle schoolers and to try to try to put a dent in the cycle of poverty another way: by teaching parenting and early childhood education to young single mothers who are high school dropouts while helping them prepare for their GED’s.
I’m also seriously considering seminary.
Yes, with that much tension being placed into the Moon especially, I am not surprised that you have considered remarkable solutions. I have a tee’d Moon, from Saturn opposing Ve/Ur/Pl, so I understand intuitively the challenge of it. With your Moon in the 8th you are at the mercy of other people’s resources yes? It is the tension being expressed into the opposite domicile of having one’s own resources. Also, that is a very tricky combination, I am assuming Moon in Leo, conjunct Uranus. That’s a dissonant conjunction if ever there was one, and it cannot be easy to balance. The answer to it is to do philanthropic work, you have worked this out I see. That’s because you balance out the tee-square by focusing on the opposite side of the Grand Cross, where it is empty. That is 2nd house Aquarius. Working to help others feel secure. That’s how you fix your finances. There’s a great book, now unfortunately out of print on the subject called “How to Handle Your T-Square”, by Tracy Marks. You can still pick up copies from Abebooks. I had one shipped a little while ago from the States, and it is still very relevant.
Good luck.
Why is Jupiter in Virgo a bad placement? I have it on the midheaven, and I find it very helpful at work. I teach 6th grade Literacy in a low income ‘urban’ neighborhood.
There is no such thing as a bad placement really, but there are certain placements where a planet struggles to express its natural quality. Virgo is such a place for Jupiter because it gets bogged down in the detail. I have Jupiter in Virgo incidentally, so I know, like you, that it does have its uses. I can do exhaustive research of the kind that leaves most other people baffled, but if your Jupiter is in an expansive sign, like Sagittarius then you will not use it in the same way, you will go outward into the world with optimism and faith. So, not bad really, just less able to be Jupiter. Bear in mind that your Jupiter is strengthened considerably by being angular, and I surmise that you *may* have a Sag. Ascendant (with Virgo 10th), another boon to Jove. So any planet, however placed, can be resurrected, even from the most benighted of placements.
For the record, Jupiter works especially well in Sagittarius, Pisces, and Cancer and especially not so well in Virgo, Gemini and Capricorn. He’s quite happy most everywhere else.
Actually I am very good at manifesting funds, and earn a living above the national median. I am also a spendthrift (sun conjunct Venus in Aries, 5th house cusp- Venus is technically in the 4th, so the conjunction straddles the cusp), and have that elevated Leo moon. She insists on things imported Scottish Fine Soaps and the Uranus is revolutionary and refuses to support Monsanto or eat GMO’s. I don’t have much given to me (single mom with slacker ex). My asc is actually at the end of Scorpio, which is squared a 9th house Plutoin Leo . Even though the Leo Moon is in the 8th, she is on the 9th house cusp.
My Jupiter is more roll up your sleeves and stand in the soup kitchen type rather than just talk about hunger type. It is the apex of another t square with a Saturn/mars opposition across the 1st and 7th houses in sag and Gemini.
I thought that the recent Jupiter conjunction to my 7th house mars would have brought some relationship potential my way, but alas no.
No such luck – asc late Scorpio (and like Allhoney’s, squaring Pluto in Leo 9th)
What orbs do you allow Orcus please?
Sorry Morvah, I missed this.
Same as Pluto my dear xx
My Neptune is in Scorpio / 3rd, opposing Jupiter (and Mars/Mercury) in the lofty 9th. I have recently been asked to create an education program for younger children about bullying on the Internet. The offer specified that my “compassion-based approach to media education” was an important components in the program. This feels like an elegant statement about this incoming Saturn energy on Neptune. I was curious about a 3rd house Neptune / Scorpio placement in general.
Ah-ha…just finished reading this article. I’ve Neptune, Jupiter and Moon all conjunct each other in the 11th House Sagittarius (Sun Sign Pisces in the 2nd House, Sagittarius Ascendant, with Mars and Venus 2nd House). Pluto and Lilith in 8th House Virgo; I’ve learned more of who I really am, awareness-wise, since delving into evolutionary astrology over the previous 12 months, than I have the previous 41 years I’ve been alive!
A true eureka moment came upon me as I read the last 2-3 paragraphs. Be in contact soon for a full natal reading…
I am an avid reader of your blog and i`ve learned so much from you. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and deep insights. I was amazed by this paragraph: “Fundamentally, this shift is found in the realisation that the life of contentment and ease that we yearned for is not ‘out there’ but it is inside us, bound up in the distortion of perspective that we are somehow hard done-by, a victim of somebody else, or of God, or that, in fact, because we are good, we deserved better. Saturn teaches our Neptune that nobody gets what they deserve, they get only what they need to let go of the illusion that they deserved better.” Thanks again.
I have Neptune in Sagittarius – at the moment, I have Neptune square Neptune in Pisces. I have not dealt well with the idea that I can’t travel easily due to Covid, that I can’t go abroad wherever and whenever I want. Neptune is in Pisces in my 2nd House – I think my waking up dream would be in a nice hotel somewhere abroad, maybe in a city, like Berlin, or Paris, or looking out over the sea in Italy or Greece, which seems to combine Neptune in Sagittarius with the second house very well. My Gemini Sun would probably prefer the city, actually, so I could then go out and visit museums, shops, galleries – so much, really, that we haven’t been allowed to do this past year.